Well, I didn’t suggest removing id scrolls completely because it makes for a different kind of identification minigame, where you weigh which scrolls you’d likely lose to read-id vs how badly you need identified scrolls now instead of later when you have enough id scrolls. Similar to !degen, ?iden doesn’t contribute to long term inventory pressure.
I suggested potion of degen to take a similar role for potions, so that you weigh how bad the consequences of degen would be right now vs how badly you need identified potions. In the current state of the game, degen creates a similar decision, but only rarely, and then it depends too much on whether it could give you stat-zero.
Of course use-id in combat is fun, but removing ?iden would just take away a kind of decision in favor of having more of the same kind of decision.
I do not understand the decision you talk about, mostly because the difficulty of the game is so heavily biased towards the first few levels I think this kind of decision does not exist in DCSS.
Well, then you might as well argue for the removal of everything past the first few levels.
It’s also worth asking whether we even want to embrace that the difficulty is concentrated in the first few levels (and generally some other parts, like the first liar branch). I think it’d be worth more unavoidable mid/late-game deaths if those parts of the game would become more interesting in return.
I just mean that you always need identified scrolls earlier more than later. It is not the same thing as saying everything is meaningless later.
Even if you change the difficulty curve, I doubt that identification decisions will have any importance, or if they would be interesting. However, adapting to random consumables may be! So if you make using unidentified consumables worthwhile, the game could be more fun.
I just mean that you always need identified scrolls earlier more than later.
That’s not even relevant… Yeah you don’t understand it. Not sure what’s the issue there.
It’s not like id scrolls prevent use-id from ever happening. And it’s not like those oh so tactical decisions of adapting to a random item are more complex or whatever. If you want to be dismissive, you can basically dismiss the entire game as a collection of small, boring and tedious decisions and some gambling.
Making using unidentified items more optimal can indeed create more fun, but you don’t have to remove ?iden to do that.
What if in addition to its current effect potion of degeneration also spawned a short duration (1-3 turns) ring of miasma clouds around the player. Would give it a situational use in combat with a downside (stat drain + preventing the player from retreating). Can make it an interesting purple tier potion, that gives a desperate player a way to survive an unlucky start. No miasma ring for poison immune characters for balance reasons (Gr and Dj don’t need a buff).
Flavour is similar to Cigutovu’s Dreadful Rot - “your flesh rots into miasma clouds”. If this change to !degen is implemented, then the spell can be removed (or replaced with something more interesting). It’s one of the more awkward spells anyway, no big loss IMO.
If the complete 8-tile ring of miasma is deemed too strong, can make it 2-8 nearby tiles at random instead, would make it useful in a different set of situations (better in corridors, worse in the open).
Late to mid game the potion can be dropped with no regrets, since stat drain is not worth the clouds in most cases, and better tools are usually available.
I just refered to this bit. I think that the need for identified scroll early on is relevant, while loosing scrolls for later game is not.
Also, I find using the identify scrolls are tedious and this is most of the game, and I find no relevant decision regarding them.
Sure, most likely motivating id-reading can be achieved by other means, but removing id also has this effect and it also removes the tedious identifying.
Of course, if you find deceisions in identifying then removing them would remove these decisions for you, and the game could be more bland.
I think that the need for identified scroll early on is relevant, while loosing scrolls for later game is not.
Yeah that’s just not always the case. And it’s also about judging which consumable you’ll likely identify next, and deciding whether you use-id that or use an id scroll. I guess I could have explained that better.
Either way your points would be derived from the current flaws of the game, as opposed to the concept of ?iden itself.
Sure, most likely motivating id-reading can be achieved by other means, but removing id also has this effect
Use-id out of combat is less interesting than also using id scrolls. Use-id in combat isn’t significantly encouraged by removing id scrolls when compared to just spawning less id scrolls.
I find using the identify scrolls are tedious
Compared to use-id, it’s one more button press, and you could macro that away. And it doesn’t have an effect that you may have to wait out. Removing ?iden wouldn’t significantly reduce any tedium.
Idea: Quaffing degen could also enfeeble enemies around the player (e.g. as you open the bottle a chaotically glowing mist flows out) which would make the current fight potentially easier at the cost of stat drain.
Alternately, could cause the irradiate effect or similar.
Worth noting that a replacement for !degen (if we wanted one) could also be an item with solely strategic utility, like ?ew or ?ea. (Since you can just leave those on the floor until you need them.)
If a rework has positive effects for the player, you’d need to either drink it immediatly, or never drink it on a given character. Which doesn’t leave a lot of room for creating interesting decisions.
That entire consideration was wrong. For example, a reworked !degen could have a non-stackable permanent benefit that you only need later, but a temporary downside that you want to avoid getting too early.
Come to think of it, if a rework has positive effects, it could also be a separate item existing alongside of !degen. In a sense, those ideas are tangential, not really reworking the concept of !degen, but instead just attaching a second mechanism to it, which may be easier to balance as a separate item.
What if degen potions had a chance of giving you Evolution (hidden genetic potential), in addition to their stat drains? This would give you guaranteed positive mutations in the future, at the cost of reduced combat effectiveness right now. It could be a nice form of gambling a la mutation roulette, but different.
It’s an idea, but the example was about something you clearly want to avoid drinking too early, while evolution is something you’d want as early as possible to get the advantages as early as possible. I was thinking about something like a late-game resistance.
And both of these could be a separate consumable or evokable existing alongside of !degen. Whatever makes us want to rework !degen right now still would make us want to rework it’s original aspect within such a reworked !degen.
What if quaffing degen functioned as a minor potion of XP while also giving you Vertigo for the next 1/2 XL? Or similar. Could still keep some stat drain if needed.
Vertigo is pretty impactful at a lower level. The xp gain could be tweaked to make it a meaningful choice, with benefit from the extra XP not being good enough to counteract the vertigo effect.
In my example, you still get the stat drain from degen. So quaffing it too early is going to kill you or at least make the early game a lot harder. The evolution is your potential (not guaranteed) reward for surviving that.
Once you have degen identified and have a big pile of them in your inventory, the casino is open. Do you quaff a whole bunch of them until you get evolution? Or do you wait until you’re stronger. The downside of quaffing now is that you may take a bunch of stat drain and get nothing out of it. Or you may get lucky and get evolution right away so you can stop quaffing and just wait to get your good mutations.
The downside of waiting until you’re stronger is twofold: you’ll have the good mutations for less time (so benefit from them less) and when you’re higher level it takes longer to level up so you have to wait even longer to get the benefit. Wait too long, of course, and the benefit won’t even happen at all because you’ll be finished the orb run.
Right, you can see it as an example for my example. I just meant, depending on your character the stat drain isn’t a big deal, so sometimes you wouldn’t want to avoid quaff-id’ing !degen. But that’s also a general problem with !degen as is.
The stat drain could also be tweaked and generally made stronger. Maybe it could be made partly proportional to your current stats, so your highest stat might take a lot more draining than your lowest one. Make it a real challenge to quaff degen if you want evolution!
