This may be just bias speaking but they feel unless you’re playing an oni for the giant clubs they get outclassed by all other weapon types in some way. Is there something I’m missing or are they just bad?
I think a demonwhip / eveningstar is pretty strong. Early game you can sometimes find a whip of elec/poison, which is good at that point of the game.
The great mace is weak, unless you find a great mace of speed.
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M&F can really go two ways, fast or slow…
Fast is really nice if you’re running something with strong aux attacks like a Mino with Demon Whips (a fairly common drop past 2nd rune), with the demon whips base 11 damage being juuuuust enough for a 3 rune maybe needing a !might to finish off an OoF once in a while but you’ll probably need that anyways. Really the only thing that compares in damage department for fast swinging end game weapons is Eudemon Blade.
Slow is nice too for maximum damage with the still likely to drop evening star being one of the few weapons with a damage:speed ratio more than 1 (along with Eudemon/Triple swords and Scourge).
If anything Axes are sorely underpowered compared to every other class of weapons with cleave being a tool that should only be used in emergencies; in which case, swapping and quaffing should be a viable option.
And polearms are in a class of their own with their ability to inflict unanswered damage or reach beyond the enemy right in fromt of you, but even the trident and demon trident have a better damage:speed ration than Axes.
So M&F is really mostly a comparison with Long Blades and that difference is more a matter of Str vs. Dex builds playing a factor.
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I can kind of see both sides of the maces/axes decision, although I usually go maces myself unless something pushes me strongly in the other direction. The case for m&f is simple: with good play, you should mostly be fighting one monster in a time, so the weapon that allows you to do that most efficiently and kill as many things as possible without consumables is best, and leaves you with a fat stack of potions to handle emergencies.
The case for axes is that most deaths involve something other than a nicely controlled one on one; for whatever reason, you get stuck taking a fight against unfavorable odds in bad terrain. Shaft, tp trap, tag teamed by a nagaraja and a guardian serpent…the list goes on. The argument would be that for best survivability over a whole run you want the weapon that shines when the odds are at their worst.
Like I said, I usually use maces, because I tend to think that the more precisely you play the better maces are, and my melee tactics are, well, not completely atrocious. But sometimes when it hits the fan a broad axe might be a better panic button even than a stack of potions and scrolls.
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The great mace is weak, unless you find a great mace of speed.
I don’t really see why a fairly common base damage 17 weapon with 20 skill for mindelay is “weak”, unless we are taking it as a given that battleaxes/greatswords/glaives are also weak in which case it’s more an issue of twohandedness being bad than anything specific to great mace.
Compare:
| Name | Skill | Damage | Accuracy | Base delay (%) | Min delay | Hands | Size | Ranged? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lajatang | Staves | 16 | -3 | 14 (140%) | 7 at skill 14 | 2H | Large | No |
| Great mace | Maces & Flails | 17 | -4 | 17 (170%) | 7 at skill 20 | 2H | Medium | No |
| Triple sword | Long Blades | 19 | -4 | 18 (180%) | 7 at skill 22 | 2H | Large | No |
| Bardiche | Polearms | 18 | -6 | 19 (190%) | 7 at skill 24 | 2H | Large | No |
| Executioner’s axe | Axes | 18 | -6 | 19 (180%) | 7 at skill 24 | 2H | Large | No |
Lajatang is much much easier to train to mindelay, has only 1 point of damage less, has more accuracy, and is relatively easy to find with a speed brand. If there are skills you want to dump xp into, lajatang is significantly better than Great Mace.
Speed Lajatang has better dps than non-speed Great Mace.
Tripple sword is slightly harder to train to mindelay, has 2 base damage more, same accuracy. Significantly better weapon.
Bardlich is even harder to get to mindelay, but does still have reaching, which is powerful.
Executioners axe is same as Bardlich, and cleaving is perhaps even more powerful than reaching, if you don’t deliberately lean into reaching.
In summary, if you’re going 2-handed with maces your offensive strength stalls out when you reach 20 skill, and you don’t get any worthwile compensation for stalling out.
(There’s enough acquirement & drops & shops in the game to pretty much always find a top-tier weapon eventually.)
20->22 skill is the same as getting another skill to 10
20->24 skill is the same as getting another skill to 16!
I wouldn’t say that’s no worthwhile compensation unless you’re suggesting sheer damage output is the only metric we should be measuring weapon choice by.
Yes, and 14->20 skill is the same as getting another skill to level 19!
Look, either I’m playing a character where I never run out of skill points, or I’m playing a character where eventually I’m skilling invocations to 27 just because I can.
If skill points are tight, go Lajatang.
If they aren’t, go for long blades/polearms/axes.
Great Maces have 2/3 of the disadvantage of staves, and 2/3 of the disadvantage of polearms. So they’re almost never a good choice. (In my opinion.)
Ok ya, I see your point. I come from a perspective of good enough is good enough, and I hadn’t considered it from the perspective of skill point supply. And on reflection, I can’t say I’ve ever gone out of my way to use a great mace… there might have been a cosplay challenge but nothing stands out. It’s so hard to even justify 2H these days, it ain’t like it used to be 
I think +1 accuracy with these sorts of weapons is incredibly negligible compared to +1 base damage, I value being able to find great maces faster, and it is not at all my experience that you consistently find speed lajatang.
On my current game I have cleared dungeon up to d14 and all of lair. There have been 0 natural lajatang spawns anywhere, and I have found 0 acquirement scrolls.
If I was playing a staves character my best option this late into the game would still be the +2 quarterstaff crazy yiuf spawned with… and that’s hardly something I want to sink enchant scrolls into when I’d still be waiting on a lajatang to finally drop!
Meanwhile, several great maces have already spawned:
And look at all the other maces that’ve spawned before those!
I have so many other options to use if I was playing M&F. I’d have been able to use a +2 elec whip from d6 and a +2 flaming morningstar from d8. That’s a very comfortable early-to-midgame compared to crossing my fingers and praying to get either a rare lajatang drop, or a rare acquirement scroll that still might not actually have a lajatang as an option.
Unlike the executioner’s axe and triple sword which are all a commonness:0 (never or almost never spawn randomly as floor trash only in vaults or on monsters), Lajatang has a modest commonness:2 compared to the great mace’s commonness:3.
For reference, other weapons low commoness so you can get an idea of how often you might expect to see the lajatang as floor trash:
1: Bardiche, Giant Club, GSC
2: Long Bows, Dire Flail
3: Partisan
4: Whip, Broad Axe
That said, speed brand is only 12% chance on lajatang, so speed lajatang is pretty rare and not something we can count on in any given run. Using that as an example is just cherry picking.
My fast math ( 2 @100%, 1 @ 50% out of 7 items: 1/7 + 1/7 + 1/14) says any one of the weapons we’re talking about has a 35% (40% if they’re unique, didn’t check the code) chance of appearing in hall of blades. I’d say that’s the break even point where you decide it’s time to reskill or buff up a second tier weapon.
EDIT: Quick follow up, I found the HoB code and it looks like my math is a little off. They’re first splitting out polearms and long blades, so lajatang/exe/evening/quick blade all have 50% chance of showing up with double/triple swords and partisan/bardiche having 25% chance of showing up.
However, the brands are explicitly assigned and speed is not one of the available brands for these either.
Unlike the executioner’s axe and triple sword which are all a commonness:0 (never or almost never spawn randomly as floor trash only in vaults or on monsters), Lajatang has a modest commonness:2 compared to the great mace’s commonness:3.
However, great maces are much more common compared to lajatang than that value would suggest because of how many monsters can spawn with them. They’re carried(and not rarely) by orc knights and warlords, vault guards, ettins, and some uniques like Rupert and iirc Norris. Meanwhile lajatangs are only carried by spriggan defenders and Agnes if she spawns.
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Oka just trolling me at this point… 18 M&F, no shield…
The exact same triple sword they offered in my long blades game yesterday lol
EDIT: Found a great mace, enchanted it up to +8 and electric; I took off the randart demon whip and +2 rc+ shield for it… almost immediately died and found shield of ignorance. Sorry science, great mace is just too bad to experiment with lol.
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I’m not really sure why you’re comparing the effect of accuracy with damage?
I agree the game plan of “I’m definitely going to go Lajatang” is unreliable. But I often don’t train any weapon skill until I’ve reached XL 10 or so. Sometimes you find a Lajatang on D:3 (literally), and the Lajatang is a great weapon in the sense that it’s worth immediately committing to staves. And I’m excited when I find a Lajatang. And I usually don’t regret having gone Lajatang.
I don’t care at all if I find a Great Mace on D:1. It doesn’t change my strategy in the slightest.
Tripple Sword, Handcannon, double sword, broad axe, eveningstar, demonwhip, demontrident, Lajatang, demonsword, (perhaps i’ve missed another) are all stronger than Great Mace in the sense that if I’m XL 10 and I feel like I want to start committing XP towards a weapon, and I’ve found a great mace and one of these other weapons, the character will end up stronger if I choose the other weapon.
I have gone Great Mace on occasion. I remember going great mace, finding a Lajatang of speed, and realising that that weapon has better dps.
But I think if you’ve gone for maces you’re better of committing to an eveningstar rather than a great mace. Just 2 points of damage less, and you can wield a shield.
The choice isn’t nearly as clear-cut for the other 3 weapon categories.
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I’m not really sure why you’re comparing the effect of accuracy with damage?
Because part of your comparison with lajatang vs great mace was “has only 1 point of damage less, has more accuracy”. There you were phrasing it like that was a positive comparison for lajatang-it’s not. A point of base damage is more impactful than a point of accuracy.
But I often don’t train any weapon skill until I’ve reached XL 10 or so.
I do not typically do this, I tend to start primarily melee. If you are primarily killing stuff with something else, then you can be more flexible in your weapon choice later down the line, but using melee earlier means you have to commit earlier and the consistency of a given weapon class matters a lot.
But I think if you’ve gone for maces you’re better of committing to an eveningstar rather than a great mace. Just 2 points of damage less, and you can wield a shield.
Yes, correct. None of my posts were about 2H vs 1H, and I do think shields are pretty dominant currently. It shouldn’t be a surprise regardless considering that eveningstar is a much more rare weapon than great maces, you do not always have the option of one.
My points:
- I do not believe great mace is significantly weaker than greatsword, glaive, battleaxe… or lajatang unless you either get speed or really need to save xp. There are other weapons that are better, but they are all considerably more rare, so that’s not really a surprise. It is significantly weaker than eveningstar/demon whip, but again these are more rare(or at least take longer to get in the case of demon whip) and I think good 1H weapons are generally better than 2H weapons across the board.
- Lajatangs are rare, which should be part of the analysis. Unless you don’t care about winrate or exclusively play caster starts. You can have games where it takes a long long time for one to show up, and unless you are primarily killing things with spells, that’s a big deal. And you cannot rely on a lajatang of speed showing up in any given game period, let alone in a timely fashion.
No, I often play Demonspawn Gladiator for example. Early game is easy enough with good tactics, no need to commit to a weapon. Just kill things with a untrained rapier → +4 spear → +2 whip of elec → +4 dagger of poison, etc. That’s my typical progression of weapons.
Don’t assume I can’t play melee without training weapon skills.
that’s my point. You’re permanently 5% weaker than you would otherwise be if you commit to a great mace. There’s no room to grow from there.
If you commit to a glaive, you can transition to a Bardliche later.
Almost all weapon types have a very good rare type that you can transition into.
2-handed maces are the exception, and fighting the endgame with a Great Mace is like fighting the end game with a morningstar or a rapier. It’s playing with a handicap.
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I don’t want to drag this on forever so I am just going to say I do not value having the absolute maximum potential lategame power as much as you do compared to a more reliable early to midgame.
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As someone who mains gargoyle, a species whose highest weapon type aptitude is M&F, they’re a generally good weapon type. Demon whips and eveningstars are among the most powerful options in the game. Whips and clubs aren’t great, but it’s easy to find a mace or a flail. The two-handed options (not counting the giant-sized weapons) generally fall short, but that’s true of most two-handed weapons.