Spell feedback

  • bombard

In my experience the knockback is often a disadvantage and rarely an advantage (that you need). In situations that are important, it tends to mess with your positioning.

On spellforged servitor the knockback is quite a nerf, often it pushes the servitor out of range and it wastes turns walking back in range. At other times it ruins the cover provided by the servitor. There is a perverse incentive to have it use stone arrow instead.

Suggestions: Put knockback on the lvl 3 spell instead, it might be more of an advantage early game. Maybe differenciate LCS by letting it pierce through multiple enemies.


It was a deliberate design choice for the poison school to be less useful later in the game. That’s still listed as a reason why adding acid spells to poison magic is a Won’t Do.

The gameplay themes of alchemy aren’t exactly a good concept as a whole (poison, exploding objects, and random multischool spells that would be sufficiently characterized by just the other school) so I really don’t see how this improves the tmut situation enough to justify completely cutting the original concept of the poison school. Alchemy would provide a similar future design space without including poison.


  • inugami

It’s much better than the randomness of the previous familiars. Call Canine Familiar already stood out as the starting book summon with sInv, so there wasn’t really a need for the new gimmicks. But they’re very thematic.

There’s a mild tedium because you need to attack your inugami to poof it after every fight.
Because, if you explore with an active inugami,

  1. you may want to resummon the inugami when the next fight starts, because it’s about to time out (healing doesn’t extend the time, at least not like recasting), or

  2. you might be seperated by a tele trap, and then you can’t summon it to the new location.


It has anti-synergy with other summon spells, exploding other summons fighting alongside you if you use it to it’s potential.

Previously, guardian golem could be a bomb or an unstable protector depending on the situation. That’s how a bomb summon could become part of the summoning starter book in the first place. I don’t think summoners would’ve ended up with blazeheart golem if it wasn’t for the bias created by guardian golem. Explosions are fun, sure, but gimmicks like this tend to get old, so it’s not really relevant.

Injury bond is the part that made sense for summoners. I usually only use guardian golem as a bomb when I don’t have lightning spire, and the explosion is OP for it’s level anyway. Later, lightning spire can accomplish the same more silently.

Lightning spire is very much used as a tank because of it’s low EV and lack of movement, you absolutely shouldn’t assume it to be “out of enemy range”. The injury bond is very much relevant to keep the lightning spire or a different midgame summon alive when it’s used as cover, particularily against ranged enemies. Because recasting generally means giving up the cover.


Suggestions: Put a different spell in the summoner starting book instead. Maybe put blazeheart golem in a different start, like fire elementalist, conjurer, or a new alchemist that isn’t about poison but about exploding objects.

For a replacement, Martyr’s could work. But the flavor is too “necromancy” for regular summoners. (Speaking of flavor, it doesn’t fit that the only protective summon is incompatible with the good gods, anyway.)

Martyr’s Knell is a powerful minion protection spell made for necromancers, but it also happens to be a spell protecting summons. The balance of summoners is different from the balance of necromancers, so I think it’s desirable to have two different spells offering protection to only one of undead minions or summons respectively.

Inugami design can easily become something that needs protection even more than other summons, by giving it less health (and more attack to compensate). Then you can just keep the regular guardian golem. Maybe nerf the explosion damage and/or only make it explode if it got enough damage via injury bond.

Alternatively, you could give the inugami’s mechanisms to a non-explosive guardian golem.

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I have only really played with bombard so far, but I think that the nerf is intentional. Iron Shot was a no brainer on almost every build if you could get it castable and had the slots. Whereas I have to think about how to use bombard… I can’t just sit on the stairs and snipe a whole crowd and go up before they hit me. So I think it is just an attempt to make earth a bit more complex and interesting.

Yeah, it’s not difficult to find a reason to nerf iron shot. The commit doesn’t explicitly seem to see the knockback as a disadvantage.

In the situation you describe it just means you need to go up earlier for the case the knockback throws you off (you also want to take some steps towards them before they are in range). Important situations are those that aren’t in your control like that. For example, you get teleported, and enemies are coming from two sides, and with any other spell you could take cover from one side while you deal with the other, but bombard would kick you right out of that cover.

Now if you use summons, those often happen to be that kind of cover, and a lot of other spells were also changed to be less compatible with allies, so yeah…

1 Thank

I love Martyr’s Knell for protecting Yredelemnul harvest. Being able to conserve their health with a replaceable summon is huge since the zombies are your piety and they don’t regenerate. Yred is a momentum god and anything you can do to keep zombies alive will alter your trajectory skyward so you can build momentum even faster.

I also love the flavour that the martyred shade is actually a flayed ghost who has forgotten their own death but can be jolted back into remembering by being forced to die again.

I think they reduced the Passwall max range to 3 :sob: :sob: :sob:

Passwall stabbing is one of my favourite playstyles, and even if I can’t use it in the late game without also learning to kill awake troops of enemies (making the stealth and short-blade skill rather redundant) it feels sooo good to carefully set up a passwall stab of a powerful enemy.

Passwall stabbing gets tricky lategame, with there often being lots of awake enemies around. Getting it to range 7 kept it somewhat viable.

And it was so exciting when you first get enough spell power to phase through Two Whole blocks of stone :grin:

2 Thanks

Oh no! One of my favorite runs was of a SpEE who used Passwall to stab the shit out of things in Zot. Super super fun.

Having a fun time with a DS alchemist of Ash. With a decent alchemy base I can hybridize really well in the early game, having a nice bag of tricks to throw at my enemies while I build up to something that can annihilate late game threats. Extra excited when I saw that Yara’s draws on alchemy. It’s a fun theme, and makes for an interesting mix of spells to carry along. I’m even using a staff of alchemy (when I don’t know that I’d ever bothered with a staff of poison before).

Wondering if Mercury Vapors will end up at level 3 though.

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Oh duh, almost like poison is now just yet another school that has lategame spells now. Poison also was a fun theme, but I guess that’s not novel enough for you.

What worries me about alchemy is the lack of consistency with earlier decisions, while giving reasons that are completely ignorant of those decisions, and accomplishing no meaningful improvements.

It seems like some devs are just doing whatever as long as it’s popular in that moment. I don’t personally care about poison magic, but how long until they just remove too much of what I do care about?

I gotta say, I really like Alchemy. It is a fun theme, and it plays way better then Poison did, imho.

I’m a bit sad alchemists don’t start with Ingite Poison, which is such an interesting spell, that can be used in more creative ways than most other spells. I’d happily swap OTR for it. But maybe that would still be an overpowered start. Anyways. I do enjoy the change.

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Non-poison spells and themes of alchemy would still exist if it didn’t include poison. You need to compare it to what poison and non-poison alchemy would be, not just what poison was.

Alchemy still focuses on the early
game, but flows more smoothly through the midgame by adding a few choice spells like petrify, irradiate, yaras, sticky flame. It feels, based on limited playtime, to have potential to be less grindy and more fun to accomplish the transition to late game with a char who starts with the background. An experienced crawl player is probably going to make it through the transition regardless of whether old poison magic or new alchemy is in the game given that the most dangerous part of the game is in the beginning… this seems more fun. But to each their own.

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It’s not difficult to imagine that developers would eventually create starter alchemy spells that aren’t poison and create a similar experience without removing poison as a school. There is no urgency to this, there is no tedium created by alchemy not being perfectly developed. They’re just taking the easy way of doing things, not caring about any collateral damage.