There is one objectively right way to play this game and I think I'm getting bored of it

Back Room Game Design Discussion
1

Hey all, been playing since food was in the game. Ten or so wins under my belt.

When I came back in .29 I had to relearn the game, and I unfortunately thought it became much less fun.

Mostly due to the fact that I feel there is only one way to play this game now.

What I mean is, the style of gameplay is always the same, and its slow/conservative. Slow move through the dungeon not attracting attention, Shout to isolate enemies, kite them to stairs, kill them alone. That way, you reduce the swingyness of battles and reduce randomness of damage and sound attracting new enemies. Maybe, if you get something overpowered, you can play more aggressively later in the game, but the early dungeon, you are FORCED to play slow and conservative and run away from at least 2-4 fights by D5.

Back in the day, before my time, I heard stealth and stabbing was actually a viable playstyle. Must have been nice. But at least during my time before .29, playing a melee dude that got up in guys faces and killed them before they could kill you was a legitimate way to play the game without relying on oka and throwing, an artifact weapon/armor, or trogg or gozag. The game checked your target priority, positioning, and attack option choice far more in previous versions.

Now, even though I have won melee multiple times since, it just isn’t the same. You are forced to play hyper conservative and avoid anything that has even a 1% chance of going bad because of your lack of ability to run away due to AOO, which allows enemies to attack and move on the same turn, something no player character can do without Wu Jian. This reduces gameplay variety for me, and makes every build the same, because the only true get out of a bad situation option is a blink scroll when there are enemies that can surround you with their allies the second they get on screen. Tele scrolls are too slow when you are instantly surrounded by enemies taking 8 poison attacks per turn (If the game didn’t drop rpois, good luck).

We already had this type of slow conservative, gameplay with mages, and unfortunately, the AOO changes really made melee brutes adopt the same type of play. Shout, kite, isolate. But mages can damage enemies while being far away from them, which reduces their chances to get poisoned, or take any type of resistible damage, meaning you don’t need resistances quite as much as melee do. It also gives you much more time to assess how your attacks are faring on an opponent, and if they are not doing much, you can run away without worrying about AOO. Melee do not have this luxury, and if you go up to a guy and hit but do no damage 3 times, while you get hit twice for !!, running away is really not a great option. You can right click and see how likely you are to hit, but have no idea how much damage you will do with the swingyness of rolls and damage reduction which is not laid out in plain numbers.

Oh, and as a melee guy, if you don’t get the proper resistances (rpoison) by S branches, you really have little to no hope of winning, because you need to be next to enemies to fight them,and most poison attacks are physical. Oh and you will likely get swarmed the second you start a melee battle due to the noise, so standing your ground isn’t an option either. Snake has Guardian Serpents which auto surround you with snakes the second they appear on screen and basically force a consumable use, and if you can’t blink you just die. Spider will has broodmothers which instantly surrounds you and poisons you, can’t run away, can’t tele in time, blink is the only answer. I really question why the game checks rpois so hard in the midgame, and why that status is SO deadly, as opposed to every other video game in existence, which slowly drains your health rather than kills you in less than 10 seconds. I knew that praying for a D1 +2 Dagger of venom was a huge skill check in this game, but I was unaware that praying for the game to drop an rpois ring or artefact was a comparable a measure of skill. I’ll have to train prayer harder in real life if I want to keep winning.

I’m really starting to question the game design of requiring what is essentially an ascension kit that isn’t guaranteed to spawn to advance through each rune branch in the game. This doesn’t check skill or knowledge, it just checks RNG. The oppressiveness of the poison brand midgame really needs to be addressed, or there needs to be a guaranteed way to acquire a source of rpois.

If you don’t have r pois, good luck, I really doubt that more than 1% of characters make it out of s branches when rpois doesn’t spawn, which just makes me not want to boot up a new melee character when I am so reliant on resistances. If you don’t have fly or RC, don’t even think about Shoals or swamp. I HATE HATE HATE when I get to S branches as a good melee character, and KNOW I am going to die due to lack of resistances spawning (No potions of resistance either, which are WAY too rare). Half the time I go down the stairs, get instantly surrounded at the entrance, and die because I know if I go back up the stairs, I will get hit 9 times when I walk back down. Tele scroll was changed to be far more likely to teleport you to the same screen or to another group of enemies, so just another escape tool for melee guys that got nerfed, and I die to this constantly to the point where I prefer playing formicid at this point that even engaging with the tele mechanic. You’ll also notice that my melee characters all have full resistances, basically a requirement to win as melee unless you are godlike at this game. Zot will absolutely kill you with any resistance you don’t have. If the game doesn’t drop them, you are SOL. Go to a zig or slime or something and get mutated to all hell and die I guess, that’s all you can do.

If anyone can recommend to me a roguelike that is along the lines of what I describe here, I would really appreciate it. A game where each “build” actually plays differently and you aren’t paralyzed by constantly worrying that the game is going to throw something unfair at you that can only be avoided with a specific consumable that didn’t drop. A game that checks your decision making and there are more wrong decisions to make than “I didn’t use a consumable in time” I can’t find anything that really fills this gameplay hole for me.

Oh, and in trunk, they added boundless tesseracts which force you to play aggressive after playing the entire game conservative. Have fun with that.

Maybe instead of forcing us to play aggressive by murdering our 5+ hour character at the end of the game, you could incentivize it through your gameplay systems?

2

I recognise a lot of what you’re saying, but I think you may be going a bit too far.

I’ve played a lot of DsGl and DsBr recently, relying on RNG to determine the build which usually pushes towards melee, and I’ve never felt like a lack of rPois forced a loss.

I don’t think Tele scrolls have been changed in how they select their destination? Certainly can’t find anything on git.

For me the tesseracts were quite fun the 1 time I reached them. But then I was playing a melee brawler of Mahkleb, so I could afford to rush in. Not certain how I feel about the current iteration, but I feel like something in this direction could be very fun if it was used in more places in the dungeon.

2 Thanks
3

There is actually guaranteed poison immunity: Zin’s ** ability. Zin also offers an escape ability too.

So if rPois and escapes really are a major issue for you, then maybe going with Zin will solve this issue for you. And if you get the gear you need, you can still switch to some other god, and you won’t even suffer Zin’s wrath unless you switch to an evil or chaotic god.

4

Yeah, perfect example of how the game forces you into a specific style of play and build if it decides not to drop the resistances you want. That is really antithetical to the diverse class, race, skill, and god system that the game prides itself on.

Also, I really don’t think switching to Zin right before S branches is a real option.

5

You might be right about tele scrolls, but I heard rumblings that they used to be better at teleporting you to safety. All I know is that I have been teleported 2 spaces away about 10 times in the past month. And I think that should be removed from the game. You should not teleport to the same place you are currently in. What is that besides a big middle finger to the player? Like I get it, sometimes you teleport into a group of enemies, that is fine, it incentivises not using the scroll until you clean half the level, but teleporting you to the SAME ROOM is just backwards and I question why its in the game.

Maybe tesseracts will not continue the way they are now, and I would be in favor of encouraging quick play, like the optional timed entrance branches do, but I think working on the core systems of how melee combat works would go much farther to encouraging aggressive play. Attacks of Opportunity as they are now are the main reason why the DOMINANT strategy in this game is shout, kite, isolate. I just really wish that I didn’t have to do that for every. single. room. and every. single. enemy. Give me a rest, jeez! Let me feel powerful for ONE MINUTE at least.

6

I was thinking more along the lines of pick Zin first, then switch later if you feel your gear puts you in a position where you think another god’s abilities would suit you better.

Or even if you go the route of switching to Zin later on, plan ahead a bit so that you can build up some piety elsewhere (and reduce your old God’s wrath) before you feel that you don’t have any better option than to go into the branch you want Zin’s abilities for.

7

I get that its an option, I just think that further analysis of the difficulty of snake and spider without rpois is warranted. Snake, an already difficult branch, might be the hardest branches in the entire game without rpois. And honestly, these branches are hard enough without auto killing 99% of players who don’t have rpois. rpois should HELP YOU clear the branch, not be nearly essential. Not to mention, you should probably have resist fire in this branch too with all the salamanders, lest you want to get chased down and fire bolted over and over.

Roguelikes are known for gathering an Ascension kit, which has all the items you need to finish the game. This comes from nethack, where you can ALWAYS find the items you need. In this game, it is possible that the game drops you ZERO resist fire items that are usable by the time you fight orbs of fire. I just don’t think that, that should be possible. I get that the game is random, but we have the ability to remove unfun and uninteresting outcomes like that.

I think poison needs to be looked at as potentially being a bit too powerful, for players and enemies. It seems to far outweigh the danger from other elements, and is by far the most common elemental damage type. It doesn’t have swingy high damage attacks, but it does cause constant, high level damage relative to the investment. And honestly, I’m getting sick of constantly dying to poison brand weapons (or using them) in early dungeon and lair with no cure potions. I honestly think that cure potions should provide a 1-2 turn window of immunity to poison to prevent constant poisoning every turn despite using a cure potion.

The fact that a poison dagger is a no brainer for every single class in the game is a real head scratcher for me in a game based on build variety. And it shows me that the game is more based on “Get the right weapon to win the game” like ghosts and goblins with the knife, rather than “Use whichever weapon is best for your build” which a build based game should be based on.

8

I get that its an option, I just think that further analysis of the difficulty of snake and spider without rpois is warranted. Snake, an already difficult branch, might be the hardest branches in the entire game without rpois. And honestly, these branches are hard enough without auto killing 99% of players who don’t have rpois. rpois should HELP YOU clear the branch, not be nearly essential.

It already is the case that rPois helps you clear the branch and is not nearly essential. It is not anywhere remotely near “auto killing 99% of players who don’t have rpois”, you are dramatically overestimating the effect of poison/rPois.

Roguelikes are known for gathering an Ascension kit, which has all the items you need to finish the game. This comes from nethack,

It doesn’t just ‘come from’ nethack, it only really applies to nethack. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the phrase “ascension kit” in reference to DCSS, tome, brogue, SiL etc.

I think poison needs to be looked at as potentially being a bit too powerful, for players and enemies. It seems to far outweigh the danger from other elements, and is by far the most common elemental damage type.

In terms of being a brand on weapons, it’s only more dangerous than other brands early on in the game. I’d much rather Rupert have a poison triple sword than a spectral or elec triple sword, for instance. In terms of elemental damage outside of weapon brands that’s only more true-I’m like 10x more scared of Nikola casting chain lightning than I am of Xak’krixis or Aizul.

The fact that a poison dagger is a no brainer for every single class in the game

It isn’t, unless you’re talking about specifically the first few dungeon floors. But in that context a usable weapon with most brands will make things quite easy.

1 Thank
9

Look at it from the other direction: it means the mechanics are that skill points aren’t so overwhelmingly important that you’re basically locked into a choice of weapon from the beginning. So, you can afford to adapt to what the dungeon gives you rather than have to make a blind choice at the beginning and hope the dungeon gives you something.

10

https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/t9es4c/brave_sir_robins_guide_to_chickening_out_and/

4 Thanks
11

Are you aware that there is currently an ongoing 70+ (and multiple 20+ streaks) done in the most recent versions? Do you know how often those players disagree about how to correctly play the game?

Anyway what you are probably looking for is ToME4, playing on Normal or Easy difficulty. Enjoy!

2 Thanks
14

I just fundamentally disagree with this take. It flies in the face of the entire skill system that there is one specific weapon brand that is overwhelmingly better for half the game because of its outstanding damage compared to every other brand. Ever heard of dominant strategy?

15

It flies in the face of the entire skill system that there is one specific weapon brand that is overwhelmingly better for half the game because of its outstanding damage compared to every other brand. Ever heard of dominant strategy?

First off, if what you’re saying is true, that’s not an issue with the skill system, it’s an issue with the relative balance of weapon brands.

Secondly, it’s not true. Venom is only a particularly strong brand very close to the start of the game and falls off pretty rapidly, you are not spending anywhere near half the game with venom being better than other brands(assuming you’re limiting to common brands, because distortion is just better period).

16

rPois isn’t that essential. Melee attackers with poison-flavored attacks aren’t a big problem unless you’re running low on potions of curing. rPois is more important if you’re going to fight enemies with venom bolt or poison arrow, or against a swamp dragon (but swamp dragons usually don’t cloud you that many times in a given run - usually you can get by with evocables, or read fog to keep the cloud off you).

If you don’t have any way to get rPois and you’re having trouble or running low on cures, go somewhere else. Do the other Lair branch, or do Vaults, or maybe dip into Elf:1.

It’s pretty unusual that you won’t have any way to get rPois by the lair branches.

If you’re constantly dying to poison from melee attackers, your character’s melee and defenses may simply be too weak (or your tactics might need improvement). They won’t poison you if they can’t damage you.

17

I’ll say that poison brand can be very, very helpful through lair and can be a great brand in orc and spider, especially on an axe. Its just about equal to other brands in other s branches besides snake, especially on fast weapons.

A well enchanted high damage weapon will outpace it by s branches though, you are right.

There are far too many times when I use a curing potion and then instantly have 2 stacks of poison again. Even one turn of poison immunity after using curing would be great so I can at least have the confidence that I can read a blink scroll before dying to poison.

18

You very rarely want to cure poison in the middle of combat. If you are at the point of ‘might die to poison next turn so I can’t blink scroll’ you should have used the blink several turns ago.

Assuming you have erred enough that you will die of poison next turn and need to heal before you blink, a Heal Wounds potion will nearly always leave you at more HP than curing, and should be your go-to in such a situation.

1 Thank
19

I agree with everything you say, I just think that the game would be better if cure potions gave you 1 turn of invulnerability.

People think when I dislike a game mechanic its because I can’t beat it, no. I dislike it because I find it unfun or leading to unfun gameplay styles.

I think a small buff to the cure potion giving invuln for one full turn would allow for more interesting decision making and strategies to deal with poison enemies.

20

You very rarely want to cure poison in the middle of combat

Oh, I don’t know about that. It depends on how long the combat will last. If you’re heavily poisoned but at decent health and there are still two or three enemies to fight, you’d better cure it or you’ll take a lot of damage before the fight is over. Curing is usually plentiful; don’t be too stingy.

1 Thank
22

Agreed. I think it would be interesting to let cure wounds potion cause a single turn of immunity to being poisoned. This exact scenario just happened to me a few seconds ago and it’s annoying when you hit cure, then are poisoned again for the same amount of damage and waste a consumable and a turn.

23

I wouldn’t be strictly against curing giving a brief poison immunity window, but I do also feel like that sort of situation is the kinda thing the game expects you to be more preemptive about.

1 Thank